Jorge Ramos on Bill Maher

Jorge Ramos, anchor of the Univisión nightly Spanish-language newscast, gave an interview in English on Real Time with Bill Maher. Here is the transcript of the interview, along with my translation into Spanish, and some comments.

Read the article...A couple of years after I graduated from college, my French professor came to speak at an alumni meeting here in San Francisco. It was a bit of an odd experience for me, because I realized it was the first time I heard Monsieur Maman [his real name, not a reference to the movie Mr. Mom] speak English. I had a similar experience tonight watching Real Time with Bill Maher, because it was the first time I had ever heard Jorge Ramos speak English. Jorge is the anchor of Univisión's nightly network newscast. I'll try to give you the Spanish translation of what he said in English.

Bill Maher: Mr. Ramos, how you doin'?	Sr. Ramos, ¿cómo 'stas?
Jorge Ramos: Good to be here. Thank you.	Muy bien, gracias.
Maher: All right, the Presidents have all gone home. Why are you still there?	Vale, todos los Presidentes fueron a casa. ¿Por qué permaneces allí?
Ramos: I don't know — because I'm doing the program with you.	No lo sé — porque hago el programa contigo.
Maher: How embarrassing for us! We made this poor man stay in Mexico when he didn't want to.	¡Qué desconcierto para nosotros! Hicimos que este pobresito permanece en México cuando no lo deseó.
Ramos: I could be back in Miami right now. Thanks, Bill.	Ya podría volver a Miami. Gracias, Bill.
Maher: This came sort of suddenly to a lot of people this week; it seemed like immigration has been around a long time, but for some reason it was suddenly the big issue of the day. From your point of view, what is the greatest misconception about what they call "illegal immigrants" in this country?	Mucha gente lo realizó repentinamente esta semana: se parecía que la inmigración ha existido desde hace mucho tiempo, pero, por cualquier causa, se hace repentinamente el grande tema de discusión del día. Desde tu punto de vista, ¿cuál es la idea falsa más grande sobre los que se llaman "los inmigrantes ilegales" en este país?
Ramos: First of all, I wouldn't call them "illegals," because by saying that, many people assume that they are criminals or terrorists, and they have absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Another misconception is that undocumented immigrants do not contribute enough to the economy, and that's quite the contrary. The latest study I saw from the National Academy of Sciences said that most immigrants — both legal and undocumented — contribute about $10 billion to the economy of the United States every single year. Finally, another misconception is that many people assume that most undocumented immigrants either crossed the border through deserts or mountains or swam the Rio Grande. In reality, most undocumented immigrants come by plane; they simply overstay their visits. So those are some of the misconceptions.	Primero, no les llamaría "los ilegales," porque mucha gente asume que son criminales o terroristas, y no tienen absolutamente nada que ver con 9/11. Otra idea falsa es que los inmigrantes indocumentados no contribuyen bastantemente a la economía, y ése es absolutamente el contrario. El estudio más último que vi de la Academia Nacional de las Ciencias (NAS) dicha que la mayoría de los inmigrantes — legal e indocumentado — contribuyen cerca de 10 mil millones de dólares a la economía de los Estados Unidos cada año. Finalmente, otra idea falsa: mucha gente asume que la mayoría de los inmigrantes indocumentados cruzaron la frontera a través de desiertos o de montañas o nadaron la Río Bravo. Verdaderamente, la mayoría de los inmigrantes indocumentados llegan en plano y simplemente se quedan tarde. Ésos son algunas de las ideas falsas.
Maher: I'll tell you another one. There's a misconception, in some parts of the country, certainly among white people, that they're not hard-working. I know from personal experience that is not true. I've never known these people to be — I'm not blowing smoke up anybody's ass, I just think they're a very, very hard-working people, and they prove that all the time. What I don't understand is, if they are so hard-working, why is Mexico so hard up?	Te diré otro. Hay una idea falsa, en algunas partes del país, ciertamente entre la gente blanca, que no son trabajadores. Sé de experiencia personal que eso no es verdad. Nunca he conocido a esta gente de ser — no soplo humo en cualquier culo, apenas pienso que es una gente muy trabajadora, y lo pruebe siempre. No entiendo, si es una gente tan trabajadora, ¿por qué está tan alcanzado México?
Ramos: At this point, people are leaving Mexico because they're hungry. Simply, that's the reason. Sometimes hunger is stronger than fear. There's this huge disparity in salaries between Mexico and the United States; for instance, if you were a Mexican working in Mexico, you'd be making about 46 pesos a day, which is about 4 dollars a day, and you know in the United States you can make exactly the same amount of money in 30 or 40 minutes. You would come to this country, so the border is broken because of that. Every minute, one immigrant crosses the border illegally into the United States, and on average every year about 500,000 Mexicans cross the border into the United States illegally and they stay here. They come here because they're hungry. President Vicente Fox promised to create 1,000,000 jobs every single year, and he was not able to deliver that, so they're going to keep coming; it doesn't matter what you do.	A este punto, salen de México porque tienen hambre. Simplemente, ésa es la razón. El hambre es a veces más fuerte que el miedo. Hay una disparidad enorme de sueldos entre México y los Estados Unidos; por ejemplo, si trabajas en México, ganarías cerca de 46 Pesos al día, que es cerca de 4 dólares al día, y sabes que en los Estados Unidos puedes ganar exactamente el mismo dinero en 30 o 40 minutos. Vendrías a este país; pues la frontera está debilitada. Cada minuto, un inmigrante cruza la frontera ilegalmente a los Estados Unidos, y por término medio cada año cerca de 500.000 mexicanos cruzan la frontera de los Estados Unidos ilegalmente y permanecen aquí. Vienen aquí porque tienen hambre. Presidente Vicente Fox prometió crear 1.000.000 trabajos cada año, y no lo podía entregar, así continuarán viniendo, no importa lo que se hace.
Maher: I don't understand why the problem can't be fixed in Mexico. I understand, America is the Land of Opportunists, and I say that for good and bad, but a case could be made to say that the noble thing would be to stay in Mexico and fix that country as opposed to coming here, because I bet you Mexico would be better off. I bet you it's the most ambitious people who wind up leaving that country.	No entiendo por qué el problema no se puede fijar en México. Entiendo, América es la Tierra de Oportunistas, y digo eso para bueno y malo, pero un argumento se podría hacer que la cosa noble sería permanecer en México y fijar ese país al contrario a venir aquí, porque apuesto a que México sería mejor apagado. Apuesto a que son finalmente las personas más ambiciosas que salen de ese país.
Ramos: No question about it, but are you going to wait 20 years for things to get better in Mexico? Is that the option? I think we can follow, for instance, what has happened in Europe, with the European Union. Rich countries, namely Germany and France, invested billions of dollars in Spain, Portugal, and Greece, but it took many, many years, so it isn't happening here. We need some sort of Marshall Plan for Mexico and Central America, but that's going to take too long. Meanwhile, what we need right now is to legalize the 12 million undocumented immigrants who are living already here in the United States, and provide visas for about 500,000 people who are coming after them. After all, the United States needs more immigrants. You just said it: immigrants are great for the economy — they take the jobs that Americans do not want to take, they pay taxes, they pay for the Social Security for a rapidly aging population, they control inflation, so it's a great business to have immigrants. Not only that, the white working-age population is going to decrease by about 5 million in the next 15 years. Who's going to replace those workers? Immigrants.	Sin duda, pero ¿esperarás 20 años para que México se mejorará? ¿Es la selección? Pienso que podemos ver, por ejemplo, qué ha sucedido en Europa, con la Unión Europea. Los países ricos, a saber Alemania y Francia, han invertido millares de millones de dólares en España, Portugal, y Grecia, pero se han desarrollado despacio, así no se resulta aquí. Necesitamos una cierta "Marshall Plan" para México y América Central, pero exigirá demasiado tiempo. Mientras tanto, necesitamos ahora legalizar a los 12 millones de inmigrantes indocumentados que ya vivos aquí en los Estados Unidos, y proporcionar las visas para cerca de 500.000 personas que las sigan. Después de todo, los Estados Unidos necesitan a más inmigrantes. Acabas de decirlo: los inmigrantes son maravillosos para la economía — toman los trabajos que los americanos no desean tomar, pagan los impuestos, pagan la Seguridad Social para una población que envejece rápidamente, controlan la inflación, así los inmigrantes mejoran la economía. No sólo eso, sino también la población blanca de la edad de trabajar va a disminuir por cerca de 5 millones en los próximos 15 años. ¿Quién substituirá a esos trabajadores? Inmigrantes.
Maher: But the white people in this country are really clueless, aren't they, about what goes on with the Hispanic population? I think people would be very surprised to learn that you have a larger audience than the three "major networks" combined for the nightly news, on your Univisión telecast. You have more viewers than Bob Schieffer, Elizabeth Vargas and Bob Woodruff, Brian Williams — there was a disc jockey here, Eddie Sotelo, very popular deejay, who got people riled up to come to these marches. The police here expected 30,000 people in the streets; it was 500,000. I just think that if nobody's listening, these people on Hispanic radio could one day say, you know what, go to your employers and cut their heads off tomorrow morning, and there'd be a lot of headless people in Beverly Hills.	Pero la gente blanca en este país es verdaderamente olvidadiza, ¿no?, sobre cuál se pasa en la población hispánica? Pienso que la gente sería muy sorprendida a aprender que tienes más televidentes que las tres "redes importantes" combinadas cada noche por las noticias, en la teledifusión Univisión. Tienes más televidentes que Bob Schieffer, Elizabeth Vargas y Bob Woodruff, Brian Williams — teníamos aquí un locutor, Eddie Sotelo, un locutor muy popular, que agitó a la gente de venir a las manifestaciones. El policía aquí contaba con 30.000 personas en las calles; era 500.000. Apenas pienso que si nadie escucha, un día estes locutores hispánicos podrían decir, ustedes saben cuántas son cinco, vayan a sus patrones y se tronchen las cabezas, mañana por la mañana, y habría mucha gente sin cabeza en Beverly Hills.
Ramos: But you know, what you just said, Piolín por la Mañana, and nobody knows who Piolín por la Mañana, or El Cucuy — those are very famous, very well-known people. What is going on in the United States is really interesting, Bill. We are going through a demographic revolution. We're not going to be here, but in 120 years from now, there will be more Hispanics than non-Hispanic whites. In other words, Latinos are not only the largest minority right now, but eventually we will be the majority in the United States, and the process is well underway. The United States is already the largest Spanish-speaking country in the world except Mexico, and we have, of course, we have George W. Bush is the first U.S. President who speaks Spanish — or should I say, the first U.S. President who thinks that he speaks Spanish. To be honest, I cannot criticize President Bush with my accent in English, but to tell you the truth this country is going through a really interesting demographic change, and many people do not realize it.	Pero tu sabes, lo que acabas de decir, Piolín por la Mañana — nadie conoce quién es Piolín por la Mañana, o El Cucuy - son estrellas muy famosas, muy bien conocidas. Lo que pasa en los Estados Unidos es verdaderamente interesante, Bill. Pasamos a través de una revolución demográfica. No vamos a estar aquí, pero 120 años adelante, habrá más hispanos que blancos no-Hispanicos. Es decir, los Latinos abarcarán finalmente no sólo la minoría más grande ahora sino también la mayoría en los Estados Unidos, y el proceso ha principiado. Los Estados Unidos ya son el país hispanohablante más grande del mundo a menos que México, y tenemos, por supuesto — George W. Bush es el primer Presidente hispanohablante de los Estados Unidos — o debo decir, el primer Presidente de los Estados Unidos que piensa que él habla español. Rectamente, no puedo criticar al Presidente Bush con mi acento en inglés, pero, veridicamente, este país pasa a través de un cambio demográfico verdaderamente interesante, y mucha gente no lo realiza.
Maher: Do you think it's just racism? Do you think if it was Sweden on our border, and it was Swedish people coming across, it would not be nearly the same issue?	¿Piensas que es solamente el racismo? Piensas que, si fuera Suecia en nuestra frontera, y fuera gente sueca que venía a través, ¿no sería casi el mismo tema?
Ramos: I hear a lot of criticism about Mexican immigrants and Salvadoran immigrants and Honduran immigrants, but I haven't heard any complaints about undocumented Irish immigrants or undocumented Canadian immigrants, but this is nothing new: even Benjamin Franklin was afraid that there were too many Germans in Pennsylvania. The foreign-born population right now is about 11%; 100 years ago, it was 14%, so we do need more immigrants in this country. So maybe there is an element, a strange element, but the most important thing is economics. As long as there are unemployed people or people hungry in Latin America, they're going to keep on coming to the United States, and we have to do something about it.	Oigo muchos de crítica sobre inmigrantes mexicanos, salvadoreños, hondureños, y guatemaltecos, pero no he oído ningunas quejas sobre inmigrantes irlandeses indocumentados o inmigrantes canadienses indocumentados, pero éste es nada de nuevo: incluso Benjamin Franklin se preocupaba de muchos alemanes en Pennsylvania. La población nacido en extranjero ahora es cerca de 11%; hace 100 años, era el 14%, así que ya necesitamos a más inmigrantes en este país. Hay tan quizá un elemento, un elemento extraño, pero la cosa más importante es la economía. Mientras que hay gente parada o hambrienta en América Latina, continuará viniendo a los Estados Unidos, y necesitamos hacer algo.

I would agree with Jorge that the term "illegals" is inappropriate, but I would defend the term "illegal immigrants." It no more suggests a criminal identity than the phrase "illegal parking"; it simply notes the objective fact that the people in question did not follow the letter of the law in immigrating to the United States. They are not merely "undocumented" immigrants, but also illegal immigrants. An undocumented immigrant is someone who got the proper legal permission but lost the paperwork to prove it.

As for Bill's "Land of Opportunists," that phrase is particularly apt with respect to some of the historical dealings between the United States and México. How prosperous might México be today if Texas and California — each of which probably has as much arable land as all of México, not to mention considerable mineral wealth — were still part of México? Of course, you'd have to throw in Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and large portions of Colorado, New Mexico, and even Wyoming. It wasn't so much Manifest Destiny that brought the United States to the borders she has today; it was more like Manifest Greed. Yes, Santa Anna was a corrupt and brutal dictator, but he didn't have any weapons of mass destruction, so the U.S. had no excuse for seizing a large chunk of the best land from México.

Jorge makes a valid point that the people coming across the border today can't wait for Mexico to get its act together, but the long-term solution to the trans-border migration problem is the "Marshall Plan" that he spoke of. What if, instead of spending $300,000,000,000.00 a year on our military presence in Iraq, we could spend that money on worldwide economic development? That is where both our economic prosperity and our military security lie, because when people have good jobs they tend to be much less interested in starting wars.

If you speak Spanish, or want to dive in to learning it, I recommend the Univision newscasts, especially for anything in the southern 2/3 of this hemisphere. Jorge Ramos was among the first journalists to interview Vicente Fox after he was elected President of Mexico, and Univision's coverage of the Mexico City earthquake in 1985 put the English-language networks to shame.

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